Qiological Community

Tonify kidney, When?

Hi. Im new to saam
Does anyone has some experience from using the kidney in tonificaton? Ithink i heard Toby said inferillity, which make sense. But is This the only time?
When Do we want to tonify liquid water??
Anyone has some experience, and wants to share​:pray:t2::pray:t2:

Hi @Mattias

Glad to have you aboard here. The group here is a great place to ask questions, and you can browse through the other discussions and learn a lot.

Yes, tonify the KD for fertility. It is also helpful for people who are always giving themselves to others and rarely doing something to care for themselves. Tonifying the KD makes people a bit more self involved with themselves, creates more attention to self. I find it particularly helpful for women who selfless give to others without taking care of themselves.

It’s helpful for people with burnout because they are depleted from giving.

Now, there are some cautions as well. Because in TCM we think “kidney deficiency” for back or knee pain. But you really need to look at where that pain is coming from. The KD tends to create “consolidation” so you want to be careful using it for masses and for pain that is result of stagnation, as the consolidating aspects of the KD can make that kind of pain worse.

Much like with herbs… first clear the stagnation, then tonifying any underlying deficiency.

Also, remember infertility can be due to blood stagnation or fluid excess causing obstruction.

As ever we need to be clear with our diagnosis.

Thank you very much, i understand. So not just for infertility… make sense…

Hi @Mattias! One thing that also really stood out to me and I have seen really remarkable results is when the person has too much “leaking out or spreading outward.” Examples like women who urinate when sneezing or having troubles retaining urination to make it to the bathroom in time. I just keep in mind that tonifying the kidney (via Saam) has a strong element of fire coming back to its source (an inward movement). I hope this helps too.

Thank you very much. I Will remember This🤗

Hi there,
I’m still dipping my toes into Sa’am, might like @Mattias . I appreciated @michaelmax 's response to Mattias’s question because I was thinking so much about a patient of mine who has been giving and giving to others in her life and is close to burn-out. On the other hand, her pulse is really tense and almost bounding. I thought of tonifying Kidney to help support her sense of self, or even Heart just to give her more support for loving others (she also has some cold symptoms), but I quailed at thought of more consolidation and tonifying Yin channels in general for someone with such a bounding sort of pulse. Or am I mixing metaphors in this case by combining my sense of pulse from other systems with my understanding of Sa’am acupuncture? Any thoughts would be appreciated!


PS: I ended up just using a little TCM mostly to move Qi and a little bit to nourish Kid and Ht, and she reported she felt a lot better afterward.

Yes it is true those that are giving a lot to others or really scattered can benefit from a consolidation treatment, but that isn’t enough to just go there as you need to look at the entire presentation. (Also for Kidney at the extreme would be no self respect that one is suicidal.) Could be that she has many blood stagnation signs, needs exercise and supplementation of SI+ may help her move stuckness and return to self. You need to look at the entire presentation.

Remember that Toby’s teacher did not use pulse but Toby does use it as further input if he needs to clarify a treatment as you did.

In a case like this you need to consider - does she get painful periods? Where is she in her cycle? I have supplemented KI+ on women with painful periods but only in the week after period when really scattered. Any varicosities or other blood stagnation signs? How is the skin on the medial heels? Sex drive? Any physical signs along Kidney or Small Intestine channels to lend weight to your diagnosis?

So take it all in for the bigger picture and don’t get focused on one symptom.

And nice to have something to fall back on that worked for her as you did in your treatment.

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Thanks, George! That is kind of you.

Good point @George_Mandler, I find that I don’t use the for diagnosis on its own, but do put it into the “picture” of what is going on for someone. Which as I think about it, is how I’ve always done it. I know there are “pulse masters” who can just use the pulse for pretty much everything, I’m not that kind of Jedi. Nor would that be part of the Saam perspective.

That said. The pulse has proven helpful for me in judging mistreatment. If it gets wiry, weak or disordered, then I know I’m not on the right track.

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For someone with dispersion thirst - drinks and pees a lot of it right out, but is young and symmetrical and has no other SI excess signs, would you say that Kid+ is a good treatment to help the kid in its capacity to absorb fluids properly?
ARe there any other options to help kid absorb fluids properly?

I would look elsewhere- Lung+ or Spleen+. Maybe even Liv+ if there is a hyperaware/controlling aspect to the peeing. H+ could be helpful if the patient is cold, perhaps with an intolerance to cold water. The patient’s Saam excesses are always the guides to treatment for me.

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If the paired channel has not relative excess signs you want to look elsewhere. Stay within the Sa’am language/framework and don’t conflate an herbal thought pattern into your diagnosis.
Stay within the framework and what is out of balance and it can be amazing what seemingly non-related symptoms can rectify themselves.

With that said, I find the ‘dispersion thirst’ a common with symptom and I cannot think of any success with Sa’am alone. I have had dry mouth improve on the table with both the ST+ and LU+ treatments but the drink and pee syndrome I do not have any known success without other interventions. I am curious if others have had success.

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That is good advice. Thank-you.
I often do need to remind myself that the Saam system is a specific way of diagnosis and as much as Toby says not to put aside everything else we learned in relation to the organs it is not always helpful to bring herbal thought patterns into Saam diagnosis.
The times that I see the least clearly what is going on with a patient is when I bring herbal thought into Saam. I truthfully am unsure how much to rely on and apply all that we learned about the functions of the organs and conformations in Saam.
I think the answer probably lies in Toby’s teacher’s encouragement to observe. It seems that observation more than drawing on information is more key to proper Saam diagnosis.
It is also much harder…

You are not alone. In the last few classes Toby has clearly stated that Saam specific pattern diagnosis is essential when practicing Saam and that information from other diagnostic systems should be imported with caution and given much lower clinical weight. He realized that inviting students to use knowledge from other TEAM systems got in the way of learning the fundamentals of Saam.

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I am very glad to hear about this clarification. That helps a lot.