Qiological Community

Do not tonify liver before a dinner party

Just wanted to share a funny anecdote - I have so many sa’am questions I’d like to ask, but thought I’d share this little story about tonifying liver.
This weekend I treated my husband for knee and elbow pain. Both internal and quite hard to replicate - but it did seem like the most palpable tenderness was on the liver channel of the knee and sj channel of the elbow. Both pains were on the left side of the body. He’s quite blood deficient and struggles with falling and staying asleep. Considering all these, I decided to tonify Liver on the right. His complexion looked rosier and more even, and much less dry, and he feel into a deep state of relaxation.
He felt recharged from the treatment, but experienced no pain relief with his knee or elbow. The funny part of the story is that that evening we had plans to attend a dinner party. I was driving and he was navigating. In a very uncharacteristic move he put in the wrong address and had us driving through the mountains about 45 minutes out of the way. We showed up late, then at the party, he uncharacteristically said something…rude. He’s usually so polite - in fact his parents met in Japan and they all speak fluent Japanese. Anyway, it was super interesting to really experience what Liver excess can be like.

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Awesome! Experiences like this all add up and strengthen your awareness of the qualities.
I wonder if the enhanced Liver excess behaviors were just a temporary phenomenon for him. Sometimes patients will feel extra dull and shielded for a day or two after Liver+ and then find a new equilibrium with their SJ qualities.

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Isn’t that cool! I had a patient a few months ago - I did a Liver supplementation treatment on her . . . . the next week, she reported having felt unpleasant things she’d never felt before in her life . . . . depressed and dark - it took a couple of weeks to fully wear off.

Consider caution with UB+ before a dinner party too.
I treated a soft eyed man who was gushing love with UB+. After the treatment he spontaneously started a conversation with vey racist and judgmental overtones! Those soft eyes were gone too.

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it continues to amaze me almost daily that these kinds of dramatic personality-level changes can be triggered by these treatments

My 11 year old son pulled his groin yesterday. He has some major SJexcess checkboxes but also some LR excess. LR+ cured my pulled groin this summer (I was amazed). So I treated LR+ on him last night while reading to him before bed. This morning my wife says “Max is being so rude and fresh”. I heard him talking back which is uncharacteristic of him lately. Unfortunately it did nothing for his groin as he was still hobbling. I hope he doesn’t get in trouble at school today.

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I’ve been having fun with LR+ these past two weeks - including treating an 11 year old girl with metabolic syndrome with acanthosis nigricans who weighs over 200 lbs, probably is autistic and has irregular periods. She has a dull eyes and affect but easily gets overwhelmed with noise and loves rainy days and sleeps way better with her new weighed blanket. She tends to be warm-hot and doesn’t sweat much. I have been treating her with acupuncture and herbs but did Saam for the first time last Friday and her mom texted me over the weekend about how peaceful she was and how she said it was the best treatment ever. I’m supposed to see her again tomorrow but might get snowed out.
I am considering down LR+ again, but she seems to have both SJ XS and LR XS so I am not sure if I ought to toggle between the two. Perhaps I’ll see how she does with a second LR+ if it seems appropriate when I next see her.

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Did he get in trouble?

Also, George, I was wondering about the young girl patient that both you and I “saw” last year. I think she was rude and unaware that that was why the other kids picked on her. If she comes back in, I’ll consider LR XS.

Thanks for sharing this case @kellykd
In case you haven’t heard this caution before: Patients with weaker constitutions tend to respond much better when you change the treatment each time, ie do not repeat the same treatment twice in a row. A slam dunk treatment one week is likely to be a failure the next week if repeated.
As well, she really sounds like a mixed SJ excess/Liver excess. This also makes repeating Liver + much, much riskier. You could toggle, but you could also look to other channels.
Reevaluating the patient with fresh eyes at the next visit and watching her closely on the table will be the best guide.

Please let us know how it goes.

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So what do you do in that situation? Do you let him go off like that in the hopes that he will rebalance on his own? That story is one of my fears in the Saam method. It is so strong and we can really affect people for better and for worse.

The patient with the racist side effect after UB+" came back this week with less back pain and a significant change in the strength of his leg. The ice cold of UB+ helped firm up a leg that felt like it could give out on a regular basis.

Yes. He had settled deeply into the treatment, so I knew it was a good match. And the above improvements were what he came for.
A patient will be pushed in in the direction of treatment for a few days, but then the system will find a new more balanced equilibrium.

Just an update about the pre dinner party treatment…his knee pain actually has improved. No improvement day 1 or day 2 but I think he started to feel a bit better 3 days post treatment, and is significantly better now. I’m used to a more immediate pain relief with treatments - but is it common with sa’am treatments for the pain relief to come in later once the system has settled into a more balanced state?

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear that he is feeling better.
I have a number of patients who consistently feel the full effect of the treatment 2 days later. These patients responded to other styles of acupuncture the same way so I can’t say it is a Saam specific phenomenon. One patient settled deeply into his treatment but significant pain relief didn’t come until 4 days later. There were no other factors that could explain the lifting of his chronic pain.
This is just my experience.
For speed of response, Toby has mentioned that cold and damp tend to respond more slowly because of their qualities. This can be on the table and off.


This is exciting to see! Ive had the same results.

2 to 3 days after treatment is when it settles after stirring the pot.

I have a feeling it has to do with how the Ko and Sheng cycle regulates post treatment.

I do think we need to be respecting the cycles when it comes to these treatments and looking a bit deeper.

I’ve started to do FE cycle workups post treatment to analyse what I’ve done and what could be expected. :blush::blush:

I’m often asked “what I can I expect from acupuncture?” And I tell people… It can take 2-3 days for a treatment to unfold itself into your system. So be attentive.
Such a radical thing for many people… to be attentive to their experience.

Over 20 years of clinic, I have witnessed so very often something about "two days after the treatment . . . . “, so much so I consider essentially ‘normal’ around which more immediate and more prolonged response less normal. There is something about 'two days after treatment” . . . . which, whatever it precisely reflects is certainly fascinating in a general sense because it clearly means the treatment triggers / initiates a process in the patient that then takes ‘two days’ to fully unfold and manifest.

As a side (but probably very related) note, it’s certainly very often the case that, whether its a car accident, a bad fall on the ice, running an extreme event like a marathon, some kind of trauma, etc . . . that its not immediately of even the next day but two days later a person reports feeling the biggest impact.

I find when I travel internationally across time zones that day 3 is the worst for jet lag.

ever tried using the horary points for the time zone you are in? I have known folks flying long distance to do the horaries as they pass through each hour of the destination time zone…probably really helpful on those trips to China

i have tried the horary point thing and did not find it that helpful.

I’ve thought about how to use Saam for jetlag. I’m working here COMPLETELY out of theory. I don’t know if this works or not as I’ve not been able to travel lately and for short trips, like a few time zones here in the states I don’t really have much trouble with jet lag.

But the next time I travel internationally I’m thinking that while on the plane to occasionally tonify the channel of where the meridian flow is at the location I’m going to. And then once arrived to tonify the channel of the organ related to the meridian clock flow one more time.

again, this is a though experiment that I’ve not had an opportunity to try. Hopefully we can get on planes again next year.