Qiological Community

Definition of symmetrical/non-symmetrical faces

In the observation webinar last night (which was excellent!!) we looked at a few beautiful women who had non-symmetrical faces. Non-symmetrical in these cases meant that the lay out on the face was not symmetrical - one eye higher than the other, uneven sides of the mouth…
Excuse my ignorance here but is that what is meant by non-symmetrical - as in SI excess or is that just one way of defining it??
I was under the impression from the intro classes that non-symmetrical meant someone who was not necessarily pretty/handsome.
The people in the slides were pretty/handsome but they had non-symmetrical aspects to their faces.
Is that what we are supposed to be looking for??


GREAT question . . . . . . . . . . . .
(I had to put in all those dots to meet the minimum text requirement)

Thanks for asking this question Adina. It helps everyone get really clear on the basics.

K excess=symmetrical
SI excess=non-symmetrical

Symmetry is a common standard of beauty but, then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I asked Toby if we are primarily looking at bone level symmetry as an expression of the Kidney consolidated self since flesh level symmetry could be influenced by so many other factors. This is how he responded:

"My teacher did not differentiate between bone and soft tissue symmetry. Like you, my sense is that bone structure symmetry is predominantly what we’re evaluating."

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Thank-you so much for clarifying.
If I am now understanding correctly that means that we are looking at bone structure symmetry and this does not necessarily = beauty.
An example of this would be one of the woman that Toby showed a picture of who was beautiful but her bone structure was not symmetrical so on this point she would be SI excess.
Is that correct?

I don’t think so.
Perfect symmetry is an extreme expression of Kidney excess. You don’t need to be perfectly symmetrical to have a relative abundance of Kidney energy compared to SI energy. We might have to look at more pictures and talk to Toby about the amount of asymmetry needed to cross the line.

I can’t quite remember the lady in question well enough to rate her symmetry but my guess is that it was still pretty decent. Most actors, especially women, are going to be on the Kidney excess side of the scale to get paid.

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I also wonder if there is a sort of symmetry of asymmetry . . . hard to articulate . . . but I do find some people may have something ‘asymmetrical’ in their facial presentation and YET, their overall facial ‘bone structure’ transmits VERY powerfully. Perhaps ‘symmetry’ isn’t quite what we are thinking it is?

think of the late great Marty Feldman . . . .

I hear the point you are making but I agree that more pictures and discussion with Toby is necessary to be fully comfortable in making this distinction. As with most aspects of Sa’am I am sure that it is not black and white and that there is some overlap between symmetry and asymmetry but I do not feel that I have a full grasp yet of what I am looking for.

Do you see symmetry in his face?
Looks pretty asymmetrical to me…

After checking out more face front head shots, Marty’s bone structure has pretty good symmetry. The eyes are a distraction. And he might be playing up asymmetries in his acting.


Marty has strong zygoma, brow and chin. @Daniel is that what you are seeing when you say

Not specific to Saam but food for thought: The Nei Jing says something about the zygoma being the bone that represents the quality of the rest of the skeleton. (Must look for the line).

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yes!! I think the eyes are sooooo crazy, it distracts us from an otherwise quite powerful symmetry. Interesting about the Zygoma in the Nei Jing Kristin!! -When you think about it, its the very upper reaches of the Stomach channel which is pretty much the structure from frontal uprightness from head to toe.

Ling Shu Chap 46:
Larre/Rochat de la Vallee: The zygoma is the root of all the bones.
Unschuld: The cheek bones are the basis of all the bones. When the cheek bones are big, then all the bones are big. When the cheek bones are small, then all the bones are small.

Marty is such a great example for this reason. What are we letting ourselves get distracted by when we look for these markers in our patients? I can see it going the other way too. For instance letting someone’s charisma distract us from their asymmetries.

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Interesting. I have always looked at the mandible this way. For me the mandible (and its squareness) seems much more definitive for big bone than the zygoma.
I wonder if Asian vs European facial features. (I do not say this with tongue in cheek)

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To me it looks like the whole left side of his face (his left our right) is lifted up and the right side sits normally. Look at his left side of the mouth, the left cheek, eye, and eyebrow.
Isn’t the definition of asymmetrical - when the two sides dont match up?
If we just look at that then isn’t there asymmetry here pointing to SI excess?

Like I said before, perfect symmetry is an extreme of K excess. Marty’s bone symmetry might not be a perfect 10 but it is pretty good, enough to keep him on the Kidney excess side in my estimation.
The wrinkles in his forehead suggest that he might be raising his left eyebrow more than his right which will lift that side of his face. Facial muscles are most often not totally relaxed and there can be asymmetrical expressions.

Toby did say that his teacher used both flesh and bone to evaluate symmetry. I personally am giving more weight to bone than flesh.

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. . . . particularly being in the Kidney domain!